The EthnoMed Podcast
The official podcast of EthnoMed.org, a website based in the Interpreter Services Department at Harborview Medical Center which serves as a cultural bridge connecting providers and patients with resources for cross-cultural medicine. The podcast features provider interviews, community highlights, and topical episodes related to cross-cultural medicine.
The EthnoMed Podcast
Provider Pulse Ep. 16: Stories that Heal - Jefferson Nguyen on Listening, Resilience, and Becoming a Doctor
In this episode of the Provider Pulse Series, Dr. Duncan Reid sits down with Jefferson Nguyen, medical student at the University of Washington School of Medicine.
Growing up in South Seattle as the son of Vietnamese refugees, Jefferson Nguyen never imagined that his path to medicine would be a straight line — because it wasn’t. In this candid conversation, Jefferson shares how a community health clinic shaped his early view of medicine, how he wrestled with identity and belonging, and how jobs at Harborview Medical Center— from trauma research to patient care technician — deepened his understanding of disparities and patient stories.
We discuss the pressures of the “perfect pre-med narrative,” how Jefferson learned to balance technical skill with human connection, and why embracing both made him a stronger medical school applicant. He also offers practical advice on mentorship, undergraduate resources, shadowing strategies, and building a life outside medicine.
Whether you’re a pre-med student, early-career professional, or simply interested in the human side of healthcare, this episode contains insight and encouragement for anyone finding their own way in medicine.
Additional resources mentioned in the episode:
Two studies mentioned in this episode:
Doctors vs Doctors with AI vs AI alone on challenging cases:
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2825395
Goh E, Gallo R, Hom J, et al. Large Language Model Influence on Diagnostic Reasoning: A Randomized Clinical Trial. JAMA Netw Open. 2024;7(10)
Article on performance of ChatGPT on USMLE:
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9931230/
Kung TH, Cheatham M, Medenilla A, Sillos C, De Leon L, Elepaño C, Madriaga M, Aggabao R, Diaz-Candido G, Maningo J, Tseng V. Performance of ChatGPT on USMLE: Potential for AI-assisted medical education using large language models. PLOS Digit Health. 2023 Feb 9;2(2):e0000198.
Other Links:
AAMC Fee Assistance Program
https://students-residents.aamc.org/fee-assistance-program/fee-assistance-program
Dr. Douglas Zatzick, MD
Psychiatrist mentioned in the episode who works on post-traumatic stress disorder.
https://www.uwmedicine.org/bios/douglas-zatzick
International Community Health Services:
South Seattle Emerald Newspaper:
https://southseattleemerald.org/
UW Brotherhood Initiative:
https://brotherhoodinitiative.org/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdlg6Btm7dE
UW Instructional Center:
https://www.washington.edu/omad/advancement/instructional-center/
UW Vietnamese Student Association:
Link to retirement announcement of Dr. Anthony Chen:
https://tpchd.org/news/dr-anthony-chen-officially-retires-as-director
Visit EthnoMed.org for additional resources. Follow us on YouTube and Instagram @EthnoMedUW
Jefferson Nguyen 03/19/2025
Jefferson: [00:00:00] I needed a job because, at this point my mom had lost her job.And I found a job working through UDub, it was at Harborview. It was the trauma and psychiatry lab and I was working as a researcher, interviewing patients who had survived significant traumas like gunshot wounds, motor vehicle accidents, assaults, and just hearing their experiences.
Duncan: welcome to the EthnoMed Podcast, a community voice in the clinic. I'm Dr. Duncan Reid, physician at Harborview Medical Center's International Medicine Clinic and Medical Director of EthnoMed.
Today we hear from Jefferson Nguyen, a medical student at the University of Washington School of Medicine. Jefferson shares his journey from growing up in South Seattle as a son of Vietnamese refugees to working at Harborview as a patient care technician and researcher, and finally finding his path to medical school after moments of doubt and several false starts.
In this conversation, Jefferson reflects on how a community health clinic helped shape his perception of medicine in childhood, the [00:01:00] importance of his immigrant identity on his career goals and why embracing both the technical and human sides of medicine has become central to his purpose.
He also shares many practical resources available at the University of Washington to help students navigate their undergraduate years. Whether you're a pre-med student looking for guidance or simply interested in hearing a deeply personal reflective story about finding your place in medicine, this episode offers inspiration and practical advice.
Jefferson: My name is Jeff Nguyen and I'm a first year at the University of Washington School of Medicine. And yeah, I think it's a very important conversation to have about what a pathway to medical school looks like, not just in terms of a traditional trajectory of leaving undergrad and then going straight to medical school.
But from perspectives of folks who had a lot of struggles or faced a lot of challenges and uncertainty on the pathway. And I could not be here without all the mentorship and leadership that really brought me up.
To start off, I'll, [00:02:00] talk about my family's immigration story.
I think that forms a really essential core of who I want to be as a doctor. My grandpa was a political prisoner during the fall of Saigon. He was an army captain who was in prison for a decade, after the Vietnam War ended and so it took us a while to get here.
We came here in 1992.
Duncan: And when were you born?
Jefferson: I was born 1998.
I was born up in Cherry Hill, very close to where we're doing this podcast.
Duncan: Wow. , And then your parents, what were they doing for work?
Jefferson: My mom was working on the factory line in a backpack supply factory thingy. And my dad was a warehouse driver. Yeah.
Duncan: Were they educated back in Vietnam?
Jefferson: Yeah. My mom was a teacher. She did some vocational training. My dad was a high school teacher. He did some college in Vietnam.
Duncan: So they had to step down in terms of the jobs that they were able to perform here. Yeah.
Jefferson: Yeah.
Thankfully at that time, ICHS, the International Community Health Services Clinic, which was a group established in South Seattle to care for the new [00:03:00] wave of Southeast Asian refugees. It was really helpful for us because we were able to see doctors who spoke Vietnamese, who kind of knew our language and our culture.
And it was a big relief for my family to be able to, finally get to relate to someone who understood them on a, very deep level and kind of all the pain that they had gone through in addition to the pressure to work long hours, just to keep up with rent, and stay afloat.
Growing up, with my family and going to that clinic, I was really able to see how they were caring for us in a deeper way, more than just clinical care. They cared for us in a way that made us feel attached to the community, and gave us resources to get up on our feet.
My mom had this great doctor when she was pregnant with me, his name was Dr. Anthony Chen. He was the lead for the Tacoma Pierce County Public Health Department. He just recently retired. But he is a great guy because, even though he wasn't Vietnamese, he was really connected to the community. And he was one of the few people in the medical system who took the time [00:04:00] to listen to my mom's story and the challenge of not only coming here to a new country and trying to establish herself financially but also the question of raising a child, with the kind of clashing of cultural and social values. And the stress of being a new mom and of trying to navigate this new medical system and school system.
He was just someone who paid attention to the details, and really understood what it meant to be a refugee and an immigrant here. I remember that my mom always spoke positively of him and the rest of the staff who took care of us, I-C-H-S-I think is a really good model of a holistic clinic where it's like a one-stop shop deal of you come here, you see the doctor, but you're also seeing a social worker and a therapist, and an insurance specialist.
So they're taking care of all our needs in one location.
Duncan: and it sounds like you have just this incredible impression of this doctor, Dr. Chen. Mm-hmm. were you at some of these clinic visits
Jefferson: Yeah. Yeah, I was, I was kind of a holy terror because I hated [00:05:00] vaccinations. And I remember those poor nurses, at the end of their long shift, I would come in, at the after hours clinic. 'cause I would delay the whole day not wanting to get my shot. And then they would have to hold down my legs so I don't kick the MA in the face.
And then they would give me the flu vaccine and I would toddle around the clinic trying to find Dr. Chen because he was such a reliable face. But I'm on the wall of fame at ICHS. I had my baby picture up there. But I remember hearing about that stuff around seven or eight, And when I started going to middle school too, my mom started relying on me to explain insurance terminology and navigate the system. It was really helpful again, to have those folks at ICHS who spoke Vietnamese cause I didn't have to be the only one helping her.
But at an early age, just kind of understanding, both how well my family did in the community clinic setting and how it became more of a struggle when they stepped outside of it into like specialty care.
Duncan: Was the specialty care was that a big part of, of your family's care later on?
Jefferson: My grandma got, a form of ovarian cancer later on her [00:06:00] life. And the cancer care was an example of specialty care that I think left a pretty positive impression because they were very insistent on using a cultural mediator. And a, translator explained this really challenging news to my grandma.
And I accompanied her to the clinic. I remember just stepping away and feeling that I could trust that provider. My grandma also had atrial fibrillation, so she had heart palpitations. And she was briefly hospitalized for monitoring. I remember that inpatient specialty care, like being a pretty negative impression, I was just feeling really outta sorts that day because no one was updating her in 12 hours.
Basically no one had come, shown their face to her and said, Hey this is what is going on? Or use any of the services available to connect with her and, reassure her. And that was a really challenging situation.
I was really angry at the care team because, I think we've been fortunate most of the time here to receive really good care. But that kind of shocked me back into remembering that, hey, you know, we're still an immigrant group. We're not [00:07:00] white. We're not the dominant culture.
Being treated this way is a daily norm for a lot of folks who have been as lucky as us. And just kind of remembering when we first got here and sometimes we're pretty poorly treated by the workplace or medical care. That was kind of an unfortunate throwback.
Duncan: Why do you think she was getting such infrequent updates?
Jefferson: I always try to recognize that the care team that's working for her is probably stressed out and they have a lot of patients to take care of. At the same time, I think there was a factor of knowing that she wasn't speaking English and just kind of speculating, it felt more inconvenient to take the time and explain this condition to her, kind of maybe even stereotyping her that she was less capable of processing this news.
And I guess that results in the care team not wanting to update her as frequently as they would, maybe someone that looked more affluent or spoke English.
Duncan: And how old were you at this time?
Jefferson: Uh, this was maybe four or five years ago.
Duncan: Wow. So [00:08:00] you're already adult. Yeah. But it sounds like this was a painful experience, one because of the contrast with what you experienced with ICHS primary care. Yeah. And then two, because it was reminding you of different experiences in society with your family that was reflecting some of the same kind of treatment.
And even though on its surface it sounds like maybe just a failure to update, but it was very painful because it, because of those two different aspects.
Jefferson: Yeah.
Duncan: So you grew up south Seattle, do you mind just talking about how your experience was as a Vietnamese American, you're speaking Vietnamese at home?
Jefferson: yeah. Speaking Vietnamese at home. I feel fortunate that I never felt alone being a Vietnamese person. There's sort of like a common joke about like being the only Asian person in school or people not being able to like say your name and stuff.
But I feel fortunate to grow up here because there were a lot of other Vietnamese kids that related to my story that were also children of refugees and immigrants. There were a lot of [00:09:00] Vietnamese businesses around, so my family could get the groceries they needed and services they needed.
I went to Beacon Hill and then Washington Middle School and then Garfield High School. And there was all of like very diverse schools. There was a lot of people who were Vietnamese as well. But a lot of the kids I grew up with from different immigrant groups from East Africa, some from Russia or Ukraine, they also went to those schools.
It was cool to, to kind of grow up with them and see our sort of trajectory, going along the same pathway.
Duncan: So what, what is your identity? Do you feel like.
Jefferson: It's, that's definitely a question that I'm wrestling with today. It's always been a more logistical challenge to keep up my Vietnamese identity because language is such a big part of it and I unfortunately feel that I'm losing a lot of the language skills that I was taught
So I'm trying to rectify that by taking Vietnamese language classes to be certified in medical Vietnamese. But. I know that the kind of values and culture that I grew up with, it still [00:10:00] exists within a deeper part of myself and so I trust that those childhood lessons will stick with me, as long as I'm a practicing physician.
Because the work I do right now with, my clinical interests and working in the asylum clinic at UDub, it's directly inspired by my family's story. And how immigrant groups, helped each other when we came here. So I think not only language, but like kind of the actions that I take with my skills forms a big part of my Vietnamese identity.
I think there's a lot of beauty and strength, in Seattle and in this country. But, the recent anti-immigrant, or not recent, but like deep seated anti-immigrant sentiment, makes me pretty fearful.
Yeah,
Duncan: And I think it's something you alluded to too, just seeing how your family was treated. So these experiences of different treatment is something that's been ongoing
Jefferson: yeah,
Duncan: throughout your life.
Jefferson: yeah. Um, my family's always been quick to remind [00:11:00] me, your work ethic and your grit and determination is gonna get you far. Because remember, you have black hair, you have brown eyes and yellow skin. You're gonna look and sound and act different from white people. And that's not a.
That's not a critique, that's just a fact that they recognize very quickly that they would always be different. They would always stand outside the dominant cultural hegemony. And that you would have to do a different sort of maneuvering to succeed, in a society that is structured not for you.
Duncan: That's, to me it's kinda almost shocking that it was said to you so frankly, do you remember how old you were when you received that message?
Jefferson: Yeah, probably like middle school. 'cause I was like doing bad in physics.
Duncan: Hmm.
Jefferson: And my mom was like, well, you know, Jeff, like you could continue on the trajectory that you are. She was raising me as a single mom at that point and, I feel like she was pretty stressed that was not doing well because she obviously wanted me to succeed, but she was quick to remind me that, hey, like, you know, you have a lot of work to do to gain ground, with folks who have a lot of [00:12:00] privilege already in this country. So in an innate sense, I think my family had recognized their status when they came here already. And they worked hard and they were friendly and they tried to care for everyone else, but they also knew how precarious things were. And she was quick to remind me of like, you are who you are. Like, you have working class roots. Like you didn't get here by cheating or lying like you got here by hard work. And I want you to continue that because that's really, the only way that you're gonna climb the ladder rungs.
Duncan: A tough message to receive in middle school too, right? Yeah. That's like when you start asserting your own identity, probably becoming more aware of your cultural identity, becoming more rebellious too. How do you remember how that landed was? I mean, 'cause it seems like it's a fork in the road.
Jefferson: Yeah. I mean, not well at the time, but I think. it still stays with me now because I think that was a reality that she was trying to hammer into me really quickly. And as an Asian American, you know, like there's the model minority privilege, so I don't feel under threat of, violence.
But it's more of like, again, knowing that we are still outsiders. But I think that also kind [00:13:00] of set within me an impulse to care for others in the same situation and wanting, a future where I'm putting my skills to work, caring for people who are also marginalized, so that they don't have to experience, the same hardships that my family went through.
Right.
Duncan: I think it speaks a lot to your mom to be able to say that so bluntly, and I think it says a lot about you too at that age to be able to internalize that message and use it in a way that's been motivating and ultimately getting you to a really successful place. So how is school
So it sounds like elementary schools fine.
Jefferson: Yeah. It was, it was fun. I think school was always good, I, I just like learning. I was like a huge nerd. it was good for me to, to go to public schools in South and Central Seattle again, because the teachers we re, for the most part, really solid in understanding that there are a lot of different cultural dynamics and family situations that were coming into the classroom.
And they were really respectful of that. I think that really set me up to thrive [00:14:00] when I went to undergrad. just going to UDub and, seeing people from all walks of life and backgrounds coming there, helped me to kind of navigate, a much larger school with a lot of different perspectives.
Duncan: so when you're in high school, what were you thinking? What were you gonna be, what were you gonna do?
Jefferson: I worked for a while in high school on this newspaper called the South Seattle Emerald.
And it was unique in that it was on the ground journalism about different issues and cultural events that were happening in South Seattle specifically, for the people and the immigrant groups that I grew up around. I was having a great time because I really liked interviewing people. And at the time I was really interested in photography and art and I still am. And I got to do things like go to an artist opening, and interview the artists and check out their work.
I got to interview like sounders, like ultras groups. And that was really fun, just as a high schooler getting to know all these different subcultures that hadn't really been exposed to in Seattle. Yeah, I kind of really went hard on the journalism or like art [00:15:00] piece when I was in school and I kind of kept that up until undergrad. I.
Duncan: Were you not shy? It seems like putting yourself out there with this journalism thing. I can't imagine in high school meeting all of these different groups, how was that?
Jefferson: It was like pretty scary at first. And I was wondering how odd I looked, as a teenager, like walking to a room full of adults discussing history that I had no idea about. I think a really positive impression that I left with from that sort of stint in my life was that everyone wants to have their story told.
You know, everyone wants to talk about themselves, not in like a selfish way. It's just everyone wants to feel that their life experiences and the challenges that they've gone through are respected, and that the work and joy and positivity they're creating with their lives does leave a good impression on people. And I was really keen to write about how, displaying their art made, them feel like they were so proud to, show their creativity, to the world.
Or like the Sounders groups like, marching, when the Sounders played the [00:16:00] timbers Right. And like screaming and burning wood. Yeah. Looks barbaric on the outside. But it, to me it was just like such a cathartic expression of me. Like I'm so proud of being in the Pacific Northwest.
I'm so proud of being a part of this group.
Duncan: So it sounds like you got good experience interfacing with adults and then that realization too, that people actually are quite open if they feel like they're being listened to.
Jefferson: Absolutely. Yeah.
Duncan: And then when you went to college, were you thinking U-Dub? Were you thinking anywhere else? Were U-Dub was probably.
Jefferson: UW was, was number one. Yeah. Just being close to my family. Yeah.
Duncan: How was the experience in college?
Jefferson: Um, it was challenging at first because I have kind of an inherent shyness that it was really hard for me at first to kind of break out my shell. There's a couple things that really helped me. I joined the Vietnamese Student Association, as an undergrad. And, and again, it was helpful with my interface with people who kind of shared the same background as I did.
At the same time, there's a really, really helpful group called the Brotherhood Initiative. And it was oriented towards young [00:17:00] men of color, and the recognition of Dr. Joe Lott for the awareness of him to, see that young men of color had declining graduation rates from UW.
He wanted to rectify that with a specialized program from the department of education at UDub. He was a professor that set up this program that gave young men of color a lot of mentorship and leadership opportunities. And that group was really helpful again, to see people who shared my story and had kind of an unorthodox or like challenging path to academia.
Duncan: So you were meeting a lot of people that had similar experiences to you.
Jefferson: Yes, yes. Yeah.
Duncan: Were there academic challenges too, these years in undergrad?
Jefferson: I think adjusting to the curve at first of gigantic 600 person classes and wanting to be able to succeed and the pressure of now having to really network and get your name out there. it all felt a bit much to me at one point. And I definitely had some slip ups of committing to too many things but.
again, I really enjoyed the [00:18:00] academic challenge. and I did well just by kind of reevaluating my study strategies all the time. I think there's a really helpful resource called the Instructional Center, at UDub, which is run by the office of Minority Affairs and Diversity or OMED. And that place was really helpful.
They had a lot of great tutors. And again, a lot of people who were really empathetic to people who didn't have a really high, academic background or family in academia, which was really helpful to me to pass these really tough science classes.
Duncan: Well, thanks for sharing those. I think those will be useful for a lot of pre-med students that we're talking to. And then what were you thinking about career-wise?
Jefferson: I wanted to journalism. I think the reality quickly set in that journalism is a very tough profession to get into. Kind of the same mindset that I had with art. I really actually like, wanted to go to art school in high school. But I just did not enjoy the self-marketing aspect of a lot of creative careers.
It just felt like it kind of undercut the pure fun that I had with writing and with art. So I wanted a [00:19:00] career that would give me a lot of technical skill, and a lot of ability to serve, and what career as well would integrate with my love for science. I kind of stumbled onto medicine just kind of thinking about what I do, in the future that would align with the values that I grew up with that would best reflect the upbringing that I grew up with and honor the aid and the help that raised up my family and I. And medicine was on that list. Again, I didn't know what being a doctor was and I kind of challenged myself to think about all these different avenues in medicine that would work for me.
I think also a word to the pre-med students, I think there's a lot of pressure when you're starting to think about medicine, to think about it in a very deep and like, meaningful way. It could be really as simple as a motivation to care for people and also you like science.
That's a perfect starting point. It doesn't have to be this epic saga that led you up to that point. I think the important thing is that you continue to explore and expand [00:20:00] upon that initial seed. So for me, I just kind of like a simple, starting point of, I like biology, I like chemistry. I was really enjoying these classes and trying to explore, a career with a lot of technical skill.
And I remember how helpful doctors were to my family. I wondered what medicine was like, so I kind of kept exploring and like talking to people about, Hey, what is nursing? What is like being a PA ? I didn't know any of these profession, social worker, occupational therapist, so just kind of muddling along and taking these science pre-req classes to cover my bases.
Duncan: I really like what you're saying about not having this entire narrative, because I think when people are applying to medical school, particularly forming their personal statement, there's always that push to have this watertight narrative from the moment that you're born, that you knew you wanted to do medicine and to create that arc.
And I think it puts a lot of pressure, and I think in part, it's not always very organic, right? Yeah. You, you have to create this narrative, but then the idea that you're saying is, well, actually, that's not a good starting point. [00:21:00] Yeah. And don't get overwhelmed by that. Yeah. Just look at the very practical aspects, say, yeah.
Do you like biology? Do you like chemistry? Well, yeah. That's already half of.
Jefferson: yeah. That's half medicine. What do you like to do? Yeah, what do you enjoy doing? Like, I liked hearing people's stories and I liked the intellectual challenge of trying to piece that together with the biochemistry I was learning at school.
Duncan: And then it sounds like because of that you are able to explore various other aspects of healthcare providers, which we're hoping with these interviews we can do to expose people. But I think it can easily lead to outside of medicine and outside of medical field and probably in the very same way.
Mm-hmm. Just being open to these new experiences. So I think that's a, a great message because I think, like you were saying, there's so much pressure to come up with this cohesive story from a very young age that doesn't leave any room for any
Jefferson: Humanity.
Duncan: Yeah. Humanity decision making uncertainty, which is how.
The majority of how people make any [00:22:00] decision in life.
Jefferson: yes. Uh, we're not all like perfect rational actors that are maximizing every single moment, which I, again, kind of speaking to the pre-meds, if you're, you know, on the pre-med track at UDub or any other large state institution, you'll feel like a deep pressure from maybe yourself, your peers, your family, your advisors, to maximize every single activity, oriented all towards medicine.
I'd be very careful doing that because, thankfully medical schools like UDub Wazoo, a lot of the schools that interviewed me, they wanted to hear about my life outside of medicine. And I was able to be a little bit nerdy about my interests outside medicine. I like weightlifting, I like soccer, I like dungeon dragons.
I liked talking about that stuff. And then they liked hearing about it because it made them feel like they were talking to a human being that had done all this exploration and had a life outside of medicine of pre-reqs of the mcat. In undergrad this is a prime time to explore different interest groups to build your social network, to just get a lot of different [00:23:00] perspectives under your belt.
So I think you would really limit yourself if everything you're doing and all the friend groups and all the things that you look towards every day are oriented towards some kind of healthcare or research or anything,
Duncan: But it is a balancing act, isn't it? To like making sure you're checking off all the boxes that are expected to be checked off, but then allowing yourself to have enough exploration and personal time,
Jefferson: Absolutely. Yeah. GPA still matters. MCAT still matters. Make sure you get good grades and those pre-req classes matter.
And, and I think that's an important point too, going into medicine. It's not just like kind of a one and done thing. Like I wake up tomorrow and say I'm gonna be a doctor and then I just do a straight pathway to being a doctor. I think it's really important to take your time and think about all the different health professions that you could go into as well, and that do really important and noble work. but being a doctor again took me a lot of time to explore all these different pathways, like nursing, physician, PA, physical therapy,
So you did, undergrad in [00:24:00] public health? Yeah. And when you were graduating, what was next? What were you thinking?
Yeah. I needed a job because, at this point my mom had lost her job. And when I graduated school, that was kind of a bittersweet graduation because I was like, I need to take care of the family, like right now. And so when she went on unemployment, I was freaking out and I just like wanted a job . And I found a job working through UDub, it was at Harborview. It was the trauma and psychiatry lab that Dr. Douglas Zatzick, a faculty psychiatrist, he works on post traumatic stress disorder, for trauma
And so I joined his lab and I was working as a researcher, interviewing patients who had survived trauma, and just hearing their experiences, and trialing this intervention where we had a pure specialist, someone who was, also a trauma survivor, with a social worker and a psychiatrist to see if that would relieve post-traumatic stress disorder symptoms.
And that was a tough job in many aspects because listening to these stories is never easy, and not being [00:25:00] able to do anything about it. Through this job I got a lot of exposure into orthopedic surgery, counseling, therapy for trauma, the recovery course and disparities for people who live in poorer neighborhoods who underwent trauma or an assault versus the recovery process in time for someone who was living in a wealthier white neighborhood in Seattle and seeing how their recovery trajectory was so much easier and faster. So it got me exposed to a lot of different aspects of medicine and a lot of the nuances and disparities that exist in medicine.
Duncan: And these traumas were, uh, were they, um, hospital related typically, or they ended up in hospitalization?
What kind of traumas were these?
Jefferson: so definitely significant traumas like gunshot wounds, motor vehicle accidents, assaults, what Harborview trauma would typically see. Yeah.
Duncan: So you're probably getting a perspective that even doctors are not even getting the full picture on because you're able to sit down with
Jefferson: Mm-hmm.
Duncan: and talk to them. And then this is in retrospect as well.
Jefferson: Yes. this was in retrospect, a set of interviews over a year. [00:26:00] And again, a lot of these patients really just wanted to have their story told. a lot of them were initially reluctant, but I encountered a surprising number of people who were like, I would love to be a part of this project simply because I know my story is going towards helping other people.
Duncan: And I have to imagine that your experience with the Seattle City Emerald, the newspaper interviewing probably was helpful in this because this is what you were doing. But this is times 10 it seems like, in terms of intensity.
Jefferson: In terms of volume terms, intensity, there's a lot more.
Duncan: Wow. Wow So it sounds like an intense thing, but you were able to handle it.
Jefferson: Yeah. And I think this brings me to a point that I wanted to raise I felt like I wasn't able to do anything most of the time 'cause I just didn't have the clinical knowledge and the scope to intervene. And along the way I, felt kind of burnt out hearing a lot of these stories, but not being able to intervene.
And at the time that really formed like a core reason as to why I wanted to go into medicine. 'cause I felt so helpless, at that point. I would say I was like almost neglecting, [00:27:00] a really core aspect of what brought me into medicine was like people's stories. Listening to these stories over and over again, I kind of pushed that to the wayside and was thinking, you know, like, this is a good job, this is important to be done.
But in my mind at that moment, what was more important to me was that I go somewhere and pick up the clinical skills. And after that, I worked as a patient care technician for like a yearish at Harborview, on the floor in order to pick up those clinical skills and see what working in that care team was like.
Duncan: How was that?
Jefferson: It was really hard. But I learned a lot because I worked with the nursing team on 6 Maleng building at Harborview. And, they're really truly like adoptive family. They were very caring. this was a great teaching hospital because they were open to me being really curious and asking a lot of questions, making mistakes, and really appreciating my enthusiasm about trying to learn everything about the clinical skills. Yeah,
Duncan: How did your trauma interviews, how did that inform the care that you were giving as a, patient care technician?
Jefferson: I think again, like at this [00:28:00] point I was thinking, the personal and the human side of medicine was not for me and I almost felt a sense of kind of like weird twisted pride that I was leaving that behind me. I felt that was like a different era of myself in pursue medicine. And I really dove into the kind of technical clinical learning that I was getting on the floor, taking care of a lot of people.
I felt really proud of gaining all these skills to set up rooms to help nurses with procedures. Even just like getting really good at transferring someone safely with, a spinal injury like gurney to a bed. I was just really proud of being able to do that, so, so well.
Duncan: So you were really focused on these technical skills. What was pushing you away or like trying to say that you weren't gonna do this narrative side of things or this patient connection? What was, what was pushing you there?
Jefferson: I think after COVID, kind of seeing the, trauma that healthcare providers had gone under, and kind of the lasting lack of learning, and [00:29:00] support from US society about healthcare. I really felt a sense of solidarity with my team
And it just felt to me that medicine was becoming, more something that I wanted to do because I had the skills to help a lot of people at once, and there was not enough time, not enough space in the day to be able to do this narrative kind of human side.
Just seeing the volume of people that are going through our floor, I was like, I don't have the time to do this. I just need to be as efficient and effective as a team member as I can. And again, I took that kind of like twisted pride in like, you know, I was leaving this behind and I was gonna go to medical school and I was gonna become a proceduralist anesthesiologist.
What whatever to really delve into at the time what I felt like I wanted to do. Yeah.
Duncan: So you already, you're set on medicine at this point. Did you apply?
Jefferson: I had fits and starts about applying, and I think that was also related to that identity crisis of like, why am I here in medicine? It took a couple of rounds for me to kind of get back to integrating both the technical and the human side. I think there was a couple of patient experiences that were really helpful for [00:30:00] me.
There was one person they had broken their leg, and it took us a long, long time to help rehab them. And, you know, I was really happy, I got really good with transferring them from the sling to the wheelchair and just making sure realized was like got, I got all the little pieces correct.
Kinda along the way, you know, they started talking about their career and like how they wanted to be independent. And really the amount of time that they were taking care of their wife and kids, it really hurt them that they were in the state where they're non-ambulatory and it would take 'em a long time.
So a month later, when they were still recovering in a hospital, they were able to transfer themselves and wheel themselves out to the sixth floor and they were seeing the view of Rainier, they were calling their, family and they were so happy about, their recovery and you know, I'm almost home.
I'm gonna, you know, I'll be there soon. I'll see you and the kids soon. those kind of experiences of melding the technical skills. I'd gotten, you know, I thought I was so high and mighty about that, but also remembering to see each person, each patient as a human being with individuality, seeing their story with empathy, and hearing about, what really [00:31:00] drove them every day was like really, I think, kind of a wake up moment for me.
There was another person who had a big TBI, and they were really agitated and disoriented for a while.
Duncan: That's traumatic brain injury.
Jefferson: brain injury. Yeah. And when they had recovered, again, talking to them about their life experiences, you know, just ambulating with them around the floor. Again, challenging to hear because.
At the same time, there was another person with a traumatic brain injury, and paralysis that had a lot of support, excellent care. And this person that I was working with basically had nothing to go back to. but again, just seeing on their face the value of someone walking with them, kind of sharing time with them.
Last example is someone who needed help feeding because they broke both their arms. and just talking to them about, their work as a street minister and working with people struggling with substance use in Seattle. At the end they thanked me and said like, Hey, you know, thank you for sharing a meal with me.
That meant a lot, right? All these small moments, adding back the piece that I think I [00:32:00] was missing helped me truly pursue medicine and keep my focus through the MCAT kind of gluing my application together was knowing that it's essential for me to keep that human piece right that I loved first.
I lost a little bit and I kind of recovered it.
Duncan: And then how about any shadowing experiences that you had?
Jefferson: Yeah. Well, okay. I shadowed Dr. Haider and you and at the International Medicine Clinic and that was really great. That clinic was really great because, I was really cool to see you guys work with, people again that like looked like me.
And again, seeing the model of the, kind of patient care home, all the social workers and cultural mediators, interpreters working as one. Cool thing too is to see how you guys take care of like multi-generational families, right?
Patients that, have kind of this complex dynamic of support or kind of stress from taking care of this large family culture, manage their own wellbeing while they're managing other people's wellbeing as well.
Duncan: And you had experience with that because you were at ICHS you were being [00:33:00] seen there and your parents were being seen there, so, so there was some sort of echoing of, what you experienced.
Jefferson: I think it was really helpful for me to get a big range of shadowing experiences. Like I shadowed addiction medicine, I shadowed the ER, shadowed pathology, a family medicine doctor on their rounds. I think it was really important for me to see all sides of medicine, kind of all the settings that doctors work in, be selective about, Hey, I like this more.
I like this more because of x and y reasons.
Duncan: do you have any advice to students about how to get these shadowing experiences?
Jefferson: I think it's helpful to do a bit of research about the doctor before and just see what their clinic day looks like just based on like their bio and u like UDub medicine or something like that. Just reach out and say like, Hey, like I am pre-med student from UDub.
I'm really interested in your clinic because X, Y, and Z. Most doctors are very happy about having students, and are very happy to share about their day. And I think if you show enthusiasm and like a basic understanding about their corner in [00:34:00] medicine.
And show up willing to learn. I think that's the most important part. Yeah.
Duncan: I think that's really helpful advice and I think pointing out too that each. There isn't just one medicine. It's like everyone has their own corner or own region of medicine and their own perspective probably on the world as well. Exactly, yeah. So then you applied smooth process.
Jefferson: Yeah. A couple fits and starts. I applied a couple times in 2022. Again, this is where I was going through this kind of whole identity crisis. So I'd started the MCAT, then I'd stop and I was like, I'm gonna delay this. And I always do that. And when, at 2023, I kind of got my act together, I took the mcat, at the beginning of 2023. I put together my application by June 2023, and therefore I was applying to enter in fall of 2024. You don't apply for the year that you are, putting your application you're applying for the year after, which is a little bit confusing. But the third time around I really got everything together, and was really helpful for me [00:35:00] was, the kind of experience that I got with the false starts.
And also, I figured out there was the fee assistance program, which is a really helpful tool that makes applying to up to 20 medical schools free and gives you a bunch of resources, for studying for the MCAT if you're under a certain income level, which I was at the time.
Duncan: When you say that this was round three. Did you actually submit those first two rounds? No. You were, no. You were going through some of the process and then lost momentum, and then you went to, so this was your actual first submission. Exactly. Everything went through. Thanks for mentioning those other resources. And then how was the interview process?
Jefferson: The interview process was much different than I thought because I was prepared for a lot of this grilling. and a lot of technical questions. I think I was appreciative that the medical schools that interviewed me, like UW and Wazu, they were very insistent on hearing my perspectives on societal and public health issues, which I already gotten some experience with, with my major.
As well as how I would maintain a sense of work life balance and my [00:36:00] life outside of medicine, who I was as a person. And it felt much more friendly than I expected. I mean, on the day I was like, running around the room, like shadow boxing, trying to hype myself up. But in the end, the interview was, very natural.
It felt like a conversation. Surprising.
Duncan: But I think it also speaks to how much experience you had. I think you probably have more experience talking to patients about traumatic experiences through medicine than. p robably in more in depth than I have. I think it speaks to the wealth of experiences that you got and I think that can be a helpful, roadmap for some people that wanna be exposed more to medicine from these other places where you're having to make a living as well.
So it's makes it all the more remarkable. Now in med school, it sounds like you're involved in a ton of things already, but how is it going?
Jefferson: Med school is, I would say very challenging. Sometimes it's the work is a lot. You feel really tired, you feel pretty stressed 'cause you're having to learn a lot of things very quickly. I also say I'm [00:37:00] having a lot of fun, because medicine, once you're in school, it opens so many doors like you would not believe, right?
Like doctors are way more receptive for you for shadowing. It just takes like an email and they're like absolutely. Because they'll talk your ear off about vascular surgery or the specialty that they like. Right? I'm constantly exposed to people who are some of the like smartest, rightest, most optimistic peers like I've worked with.
And you know, you're all in this together, you know, kind of. Bad terminology you use, but you're kind of trauma bond together because you're, you're working through all this challenging material together. And I've gotten really cool opportunities to work with, asylum seekers. We do this asylum clinic where we're supporting physicians doing medical evaluations.
So you get student volunteers scribe, and I help run a lot of the admin side of the clinic.
Duncan: Who's running?
Jefferson: Dr. Alexander Molnar, down at the International Medicine Clinic.
Twice a month. Now we're moving to three times a month. Yeah.
Duncan: Wow. That's remarkable.
Jefferson: especially in the context of the administration's new rules on immigration, we've been able to get in touch with lawyers [00:38:00] from, Northwest immigrants rights projects to get to understand the implications of these rulings on patients who are undocumented. I think that's been really helpful information for us, especially, you know, worrying whether ICE will come into a clinic or not, and be able to disseminate that information to our classmates.
Duncan: What other thoughts about first year of medicine? are you happy?
Jefferson: I'm actually very happy. I sleep a lot less than I'd like, but that's sometimes more my fault. I think it feels like a good fit in terms of my skillset, my values. I do, again, find myself sometimes slipping into, listening to a lot of patient stories over and over. It is challenging and sometimes I slip back into maybe I should do a specialty where I'm not talking to anyone.
But I think that would be a huge mistake because there's sort of a fundamental aspect of why I came into medicine is to care for people and make sure they feel heard, especially people who've been marginalized. So I'm always trying to keep that in mind about what is next in my career.
Duncan: I think you have incredible insight into how you [00:39:00] are processing it, but I think you're also pointing out this duality in medicine that I think is longstanding, right? How surgeons, and I think physicians were distinct professions for some time, and it's this idea behind the technical versus the more narrative and then where does that intersect.
And I think it is actually a helpful way of thinking about what aspect of medicine you want to go into. And I think people talk about it a lot in medical school, like, oh, I wanna do procedures. Right, right. Which I think is, for me is a they want to focus more on the technical and less on the narrative.
But you're saying given your insights into yourself it sounds like both are actually important to you.
Jefferson: Yeah, I think I would not be happy if I was just doing procedures all day and not being able to interview someone. I actually got into infectious disease and it was very interesting to hear in my infectious disease block about, the concept of an environmental health history and really listening to someone's exposure history, occupational history, what have you.
Really delving deep into exactly what a day in their life looked like and [00:40:00] how it related to their illness, and providing kind of those long-term recommendations to protect themselves.
Duncan: So that's almost an overlap with occupational health. That kind of reminds me of One Health, do you know the One Health program?
Jefferson: I took a class with Dr. Rabinowitz, Peter Rabinowitz, who's a family medicine physician and leads the One Health Group, which is a really interesting intersection between physicians, veterinarians, social workers, thinking about, how human interaction with the environment and flora and fauna is closely tied to our wellbeing.
Duncan: I remember seeing him give a talk in residency. I think it was one of the best talks I've ever seen. Just one of the most engaging people. I'm glad that he's, still involved with, medical students. Yeah. And I think that context is really important and I think you can, it's easy to lose sight of that context in medicine while you're seeing people in the sterile clinical environment.
So that's, your interest of the moment.
Jefferson: Yeah. I revived this interest group called the planetary health interest group, and we're doing some work related to getting students interfacing with climate change in health, different [00:41:00] resources and research that they can access. But that's also formed another part of my interest with infectious disease.
Countering emerging infectious disease with vector expansion, and warming climates, enabling these different pathogens to thrive in climates where they normally wouldn't. And I think that'll be a big problem in the future, that there will need to be a lot of patient education and clinical training to counter.
Duncan: When I graduated from medical schooling, Dr. Fauci came and spoke to our class, but it was before COVID to 19, and even then he's like, you know, people saying that infectious disease is a dead end. We have antibiotics. All of these things are finished.
And he was saying in his own story, then HIV came up and then it became like this centerpiece of public health, outreach. Yes. And it was incredible. And then even then when I was listening to it, I was like, but now, you know, public health isn't big. And then COVID-19 happened,
What about AI in medicine? Are you guys using it? 'cause there's a big generational gap, , in terms of familiarity, access, exposure to [00:42:00] artificial intelligence and using it.
Jefferson: I think we are kind of seeing the emergence of AI into medicine. I think our school has not taught us much about AI in medicine beyond warning us to not use it for plagiarizing or entering confidential patient information into a language learning model. Which is all fine and good, but I think there could have been more discussion perspectives on how AI will change our interaction with patients and our grasp of our knowledge base if everyone's able to look stuff up on AI.
Duncan: And my guess is that you graduated undergrad before AI was out, and probably the students now going into medical school are gonna be the first one that were using AI probably on a regular basis. So I think it's going to creep into medicine. And the question is how. Yeah. And I think they don't teach you much because I think no one knows.
And then there's always this generational gap, I think, in the uptake of information. But I think that's gonna be a fascinating area as well.
Jefferson: I will say I'm a little distrustful of it all because [00:43:00] a lot of AI companies are for profit and they are using whatever's input into this language learning model to train their models and I'm distrustful of their profit motive and incorporating that into secure patient data.
Duncan: Yeah. I think all, all great questions and I think they're gonna play out. It's an inevitable, it's gonna end up in medical education too. And it's gonna say, how do you use it in a way that can leverage what you already know without replacing you. Exactly. Because I think there was a famous JAMA article that came out like a year ago, which compared, clinician versus AI versus clinician and ai.
Did you see that one? Yeah. Well an AI won. AI alone won.
Jefferson: Wasn't that, there's also an article where AI was able to take the U-S-M-L-E, which is like the formal step one, step two, exams and pass. Yeah,
Duncan: so I mean, just thinking ahead, because what I noticed when I was in medical school is that there's a lot of anachronisms [00:44:00] in the way that medicine is taught, and I think it's because it's defined by the prior generation. And so whatever changes in medicine, it's even slower in education.
I think the electronic medical record
Jefferson: yeah,
Duncan: was the, the corollary of what happened in medicine. Right. The seismic before and after.
Jefferson: some professors, you know, expressed this kinda weird sorrow of like, I feel bad for you guys 'cause you have to learn so much more than we did. The acceleration of like, our understanding in medicine has just fired up and, right.
Duncan: But hopefully it's better for patients
Jefferson: yeah.
Duncan: and then regardless if you know it or if you can get access to the information through, up to date or any other information, hopefully, I'm not sure if it's true, but hopefully that translates into better care for patients. Yeah. Right. That's, I hope
Jefferson: I hope
Duncan: That should be the end all, be all of, all of these things, not, yeah.
Jefferson: I hope so. I hope that's our priority. Yeah.
Duncan: Yeah. any other thoughts for, premeds listening to this in terms of for finding a mentor, role of mentorship, how to be a mentor?
Jefferson: [00:45:00] Yeah. I think finding a mentor is really important. Identifying someone who cares for a patient population that you care about. You and Dr. Haider are mentors me because you care for the immigrant and refugee populations that arrive in Seattle. Finding someone that shares a lot of the same values that you can have like a good conversation with.
Someone who can relate or like fundamentally understand your story coming into medicine. And someone who is committed to that long-term relationship. and that will take a lot of time. I think mentors in medicine is incredibly important 'cause it's a long and very challenging field. And having someone on your side who has gone through that struggle is critical.
So again, just take the time when you're exploring different careers and you're exploring medicine in general, take the time to reflect and identify people who really check those boxes for you and follow up with them. Because again, I would say most doctors are very enthusiastic about talking to students and sharing their knowledge.
You just gotta pick the right one.
Duncan: What other thoughts do you have?
Jefferson: Being a mentor, I wanna be a mentor. And in [00:46:00] some ways like I'm trying, I'm trying all these different extracurricular activities that help me get in touch with middle, high school students, undergrads to share my story like I'm doing here. I don't think you have to be an expert and be so experienced in your field to be a mentor.
I think sometimes sharing your story is enough and having someone relate to that and see, Hey, I could do that as well, is enough, right?
Duncan: Thank you so much for taking the time to do this. I think our hope is just to get real people's stories about, who are going into medicine, how they got there and, and where they came from.
So I think really compelling and I, can only imagine that it's helpful for people that are from immigrant families growing up in Seattle and saying, Hey, this guy reminds me of aspects of myself. Yeah. And even listening to you, there's like, oh, there's some things I could be doing better myself.
Maybe I should be more open to these outside experiences forcing myself to do stuff. Mm-hmm. So I think really inspirational, really appreciate it. And I hope we can stay in [00:47:00] touch. Absolutely. And maybe do some projects together on EthnoMed.
Jefferson: That sounds wonderful. Okay.
Duncan: Yeah,
Well, thank you again
That was my conversation with Jefferson Nguyen medical student at the University of Washington School of Medicine. Jefferson's story reminds us that the path to medicine is often shaped by twists and turns, and that taking the time to explore, reflect, and grow personally can make you a better future clinician.
If you're a pre-med or early career student, I hope Jefferson's experiences encourage you to seek mentors, stay open to discovery, and integrate your personal story into the way you care for others. Here's a preview of next week's episode with Kenn Arning Mail Services Lead at Harborview Medical Center.
Kenn: I'm always go to unite people and to make people feel welcome. So a certain kind of person like me and most Harborview employees wanna help those who really need help. And the more they need help, the more I want to be engaged. I love being postal detective and my connections. I'm [00:48:00] solving mysteries in my own way and using my skills.
Duncan: Thank you for listening to the EthnoMed Podcast, a community voice in the clinic. If you enjoyed today's episode, please share it with a friend or colleague who might be inspired by Jefferson's journey. You can also find more episodes on Spotify, apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen.
Be sure to visit our website@ethnomed.org for additional resources. Also follow us on YouTube and Instagram at EthnoMedUW and on LinkedIn. Do you have comments or suggestions about future guests? We would love to hear from you at EthnoMeduw@uw.edu.
Thank you and see you at our next episode.